Enrique Enriquez Resource Sticky

They won't sticky these at ATF, but I don't have any problem doing it here.

Marseilles Seekers threads:
Marseilles Seekers Sign-up Thread
Exercise 1
Exercise 2
Eye Rhyme Method
Exercise 3
Exercise 4
Exercise 5
Exercise 6

Marseilles Seekers Readings 1
Marseille Seekers Readings 2

Website:
http://enriqueenriquez.net/

Eye Rhyme blog:
http://marseille-tarot.blogspot.com/

Mind Poetry blog:
http://www.mindpoetry.com/

ebook available here:
http://www.mindseyeview.com/marseilles-tarot.html

Multiply (vintage stuff - "The Devil In The Hand"! )
http://eenriquez.multiply.com/

Some essays:
http://www.tarot-history.com/History/pages/texte-Enrique.html
http://www.tarot-authentique.com/tarot-divination/excellence-marseilles-tarot.html

There's more if you look for it.

Sweet!

-Stella I can not open the exercises form Aeclectic because I was fired from there by Moonbow.
-Thanks after all...

1-Enrique Enriquez made an error when he said that TdM is a Medieval invention because Michael Hurst (with even I am agree with him on historical facts I barely never on meanings of the cards ) correctly he pointed that TdM was a "Late" Christian Medieval creation.
But I want to remark that is was the latest creation nearest to Renaissance ...
2-Middle Ages took place until 1453 the date of the fall of Constantinople.
3-TdM born after frenchmen brought the Italian deck to France after Charles VIII campaign against Italy in 1495.
4-But if we know that Renaissance took place since 14 th century is more secure to see it close to that period.
So the "Late" Medieval is more an"Earliest" Renaissance ...
5-At France once Italian Tarot arrived,this was entirely reworked mixing local traditions many very ancients thoghts.
We know several examples of that as TEMPERANCE shows...

eugim

eugim wrote:

-Stella I can not open the exercises form Aeclectic because I was fired from there by Moonbow.
-Thanks after all...

That's because Moonbow is a pendeja.
The threads basically follow the Eye Rhyme blog. If you need anything from there, let me know. I can copy & paste it in a pm or email or something.

Quote :

1-Enrique Enriquez made an error when he said that TdM is a Medieval invention

Where did he say that? I thought he said Tarot is a Medieval invention. The first references to the cards were around Dante's time - sermons against the cards, things like that.

-Okay Stella...
-But E.E. said that TAROT so not TdM was a Medieval invention,but M. Hurst said that was a "Late" Medieval invention.
So why btw all his "intuitions" are about TdM so not to Tarocchi ?
-Did your read my historical sequence ?
So isn t TAROT and more TDM an earliest Renaissance invention ?
Does not change from Dante to Marsilio Ficino ? // Dante died in 1321,Marsilio in 1499 .
a -We have that both the Cary Sheet and Visconti Sforza are barely 1445 year.
b- We have that TdM arrived at France not early that 1495-1499

-So as a result closest to theirs source (Italian and TdM decks) is the beginning of the Renaissance period,even if I m agree that earlier historical elements could fit on a very too much subtle way.
That suppose Italian subtle meanings of a source and a different TdM subtle meaning of another source.
c-So for me by no way tarot is a Medieval invention in time but surely and I m convinced has roots there.
It is a an earliest Renaissance invention after all.

eugim

eugim wrote:

-Okay Stella...
-But E.E. said that TAROT so not TdM was a Medieval invention,but M. Hurst said that was a "Late" Medieval invention.
So why btw all his "intuitions" are about TdM so not to Tarocchi ?

Please clarify?

Quote :

-Did your read my historical sequence ?

So isn t TAROT and more TDM an earliest Renaissance invention ?
Does not change from Dante to Marsilio Ficino ? // Dante died in 1321,Marsilio in 1499 .
a -We have that both the Cary Sheet and Visconti Sforza are barely 1445 year.
b- We have that TdM arrived at France not early that 1495-1499

Yes, I read your timeline.

SURVIVING early Tarot decks would be from the Renaissance, yes. REFERENCES would indicate that the inception is earlier.

Quote :

c-So for me by no way tarot is a Medieval invention in time but surely and I m convinced has roots there.
It is a an earliest Renaissance invention after all.

Roots, yes.
Semantics ITT, lol.

-I think that E.E. use Tarocchi to support or sustain with historical facts a difference with 18 century french and english occultists as Elpiphas Levi or Papus that surely distorted the meaning of the TdM beginning with De Gebelin and ending with Waite.
Here I am closest to E. E.
I think that the cards are as we see and done and there is nothing necessary to change them.
At least for respect...
-E. E. said that TAROT was a Medieval invention and historical facts show another evidences.
He has a more poetic than iconographic approach to the cards and he only advice to us he by his poetic approach,he has no link with the "ocultists" as Levi or Papus.
In my land that is call it ( "Abrir el paraguas por si llueve ... " ) // (Open the umbrella even if t is not rain for a doubt ) //I know is not the best translation,so do it Stella for me please...
-But he open a big umbrella of historical facts of Tarot origin (Italian origin btw ),if the rain of critics of his poetic approach begin to talking loud.
-I never heard him talking about TdM origin.
He use Tarot Italian historical origin to sustain his TdM inspirations as validate ...

1-Italians decks:
a-Dante connection ? / May be...
I am more close to Huck thesis about Boiardo poem and his proposition of an earliest 14 cards.
-And I more closest to an earlier Renaissance concept of ideas,even as I said in France TdM had source in more earlier deepest origin after TdM arrived close to 1495-1499.

eugim


eugim

Sometimes I think there are too many critics, Miguel. If you can learn something from Enriqué's poetic approach - he always has said that for him reading is his art - that's a good thing. If it does nothing for you - well, you are not obligated to follow it.

I like to see the poetry people create with tarot, and the history, too.

-Hi Chanah...

1-Since I am here after many threads done wrong or well,is the first time after Stella opened the talk,that I did my opinion.only for put my TdM proposition there.
So I never began that,I only replay. (Keep the difference in mind please)
2-If I m not wrong this is a Tarot Gallery.If I was wrong because I supposed it was a TdM gallery,well my apologize for all the members here...
-If it is a TAROT gallery that includes TdM.
-So I will ahead be clear more ( as I was previously ) that I always talking about EVER TdM.
3-Poetic meanings ?
-Where ?
That surely distort the original iconography done.
-I was "breaking" my mind since many years respecting the figures as they done,because I think as not less people the creators want to "say something" and then the poets suppose that anything can be freely " FIT " to yours "want for " ?
-If one have a ring and give the back to beginning,soon or later one will be arrive to it...
So that is what E.E. do.
He deny occultists but at the end fall on a poetry not far from them on another worlds...
-Remember please there is any historical serious book that explain to us what the cards meaning.
So we have only the evidence of the iconography of the cards.


eugim

I'm not denying that, Miguel. Or that for the majority of the people who use tarot it's simply a pack of cards to play a game with. Nothing remotely occult about it - and they can make a good argument, too.

Let Enriqué be a mystical poet - there is enough room in the world for them. Let the gamblers continue to gamble - there's enough room for them, too.

I don't think you're doing anything wrong, my friend, and you're doing a lot of good. The iconography is important, and there need to be people who can show that . You are one of them.

But Enriqué is not here, and he has harmed no-one by what he's done. You don't need to agree with it, but there's no reason he shouldn't keep doing it.

Half the time I'm bouncing between kabbala and how the Empress is actually a Duchess if you look at the iconography myself. I think very few of us are totally in one camp or the other - we all come to this from a different perspective. Which is one of the reasons I enjoy reading yours so much.

I don't want to fight, and I certainly don't want to discourage you from posting, Miguel! And if I have offended you, I apologise profoundly, as that was never my intent.

-Chanah...

1-May be you know me from another forums or not.
Others members as Bernice for example can tell you what is my position about TdM.
2-If not here is :
a- I am closest to Dummett,Decker and Depaulis on an historical approach but farthest on a meaning sense.
Of course farthest from Michael Hurst.
BTW, I am somewhat intriguing why E.E. never exposed his poetic approach at tarothistory.com freely... / What M. Hurst replay to him Chanah ?
-Really do you know M . Hurst site ?
b-I am trying to be closest to my approach to understand the iconographic details of TdM,of course along with my ideas.
c-I want to watch the cards as they show to us,because must be a reason for,nothing than that for me.

-So if a card show to us a violet flying elephant please told me because I never seen my friend of mine ...

eugim

-Chanah...
1-Wth E. E. I changed many too many e mails on the past.
I think he drove to ANOTHER side...
-He was "MichaelHursted" "captured " and lost his original "LE SOLEIL " card where we all I think find ours "double" inside us my friend...
I love him very much but for that I must be clear here and there...
2-I will never agree with him on a poetic approach even I respect him too much,but iconography "DONE" has something to say...
-So what I am here ? / Or you ?
-Doesn t the cards speaks "loudly" by themselves please ?

-My best as always...

eugim

-I forgot it ...

1-Fight ?
a-Never...
2-If I see a different opinion I give respect always but also I point strong my mine point of view.


eugim

-Stella...

"That's because Moonbow is a pendeja. Razz "

-So what a pity because on that case I "lost" her baby...

-Thank s for your "shoulder" my friend...

eugim

I think if you log out of Aeclectic then you can read the threads. Weird, I know. I got banned there once because of someone's idiocy - then Solandia wrote to me and said I wasn't banned, I was just 'locked out of my account'.

Is there a difference? It still let me read in any case once I managed to lose the cookies from Aeclectic, and eventually I signed up under a new user name to avoid the hassles.

I've corresponded with Michael some, especially about Fairfax Cartwright - do you know him? Back in the late 1890s or early 1900s, he had a book privately printed - it was a wonderfully creative endeavour of Sufi fairy tales with a whole layer of tarot just underneath the surface.

Rather unfortunately, back in the 1970s Bill Lammey discovered it, thought it was An Original Sufi Document, and kind of based a tarot-theology book about that, but I disremember the name of it now.

I love the Edwardians, and they always get skipped in Tarot history. Granted, they weren't around for long, but it was a marvellously creative period.

I tend to avoid a lot of tarot forums because I personally dislike how confrontational they get. Now, if it's exposed that somebody's been selling gypsy curse candles for $600 - by all means, the world needs to know. But too often I see people hurting each other in what ought to be reasoned intellectual discourse, so I'm often left alone, or occasionally corresponding privately about the historical aspect of things.

Then there's the whole split between the history and what happens when you read. Granted, if in doubt I will go with the best history I know, but I do occasionally do poetic reading as well. Using symbology and iconology and saying it's important to learn hasn't won me any popularity contests. I think it's something about forums. If I'm actually teaching people, they'll usually get excited, but when you're one discordant voice arguing against 'intuition', at least as most people use it in relation to tarot today, it doesn't win you many friends.

I also think that some of the best theories we have are the ones that were originally full of holes - and it's important to have a place where we can say 'what if...?', too.

And I'd kind of like this forum to be a place where you can say 'what if...?'. Which does NOT exclude presenting historical facts, by any means!

Did that make any sense?

Chanah :
I am agree with you at all ...
Some people just log in at the forums just for see them "there" with theirs avatar image and phone theirs friends to tell that "news"
But contribution really they do ???

-I respect people as Enrique Enriquez,Michael Hurst;Ross Caldwell,Huck,Yves Les Marseilles,JMD or Robert Mealing just for name a few.
Because even sometimes I don t agree with them I follow them because they "work" hard and seriously do theirs contributions with the support they believe.

As you after I was fired by Moonbow from Aeclectic I ve been thinking seriously not log in in any forum never more.
Just be a " ghost" visitor a The Zorro visitor of forums.
But the warm and friendly invitation of Stella to join her this site,well I can t refused it.
Here I see and best feel as you also.more open mind and less critics.
Even when I did a critic to E. E. was not without respect.
I changed several e mails with him and each other "friends".
-I if don t mind someone I never stop there to just to see what is going on...
I read what he or she say but never waste my time.Of course I can suggest something but if there is no answer,well I go on with my way.
For example you and I sometimes can be agree or not,but you ever replay kindly and with respect,so I like to talk with you and I m glad to found you.
(BTW / Which was your name at Aeclectic ? / When you were fired from there ?)
-So I feel and expect we will cross each other many times ahead.

-You struck me saying that Michael Hurst has a Sufi approach if I did not wrong understand ...
Also you really intriguing to much with Fairfaix Cartwright.I never heard nothing about him.
Is his book published ? / Is it some information at the web ?
Please let me know soon Chanah !

-Just for say once for all I like worker poster with something to say and sustain,so not merely " intuitions" without "field or ground"
Stella,Hooked and Bernice can tell you if you never read me at Aeclectic that I am closest to TdM iconography along with my thoughts and impressions.
As you know there is not a single book wrote since Noblet deck until Conver one,that explain seriously the meaning of the cards.
That suppose my dear Chanah 100 years !
-The best book I read about Tarot in all my life is a very little book wrote by Tchalai Unger was edit in the ninety as "Tarot the answer of the future"
There she said a thing as strongest as this " TAROT IS IN THE TAROT " ,on the images of the cards so not outside.
So if Noblet did want to put on a card " a violet lion" surely we can see it just now ...
-For example Noblet clearly named XIII card as DEATH.
After him as far I know anyone done after. (I am talking about historical TdM decks)
I think there must be a reason for a number a name a placement a colour a line and the order of the sequence of the 22 cards.
And the language of course... / Is not "Wheel" the X card is "LA ROVE DE FORTVNE" as an example.
Must and have a reason for...
So if Noblet skin-earth coloured the faces of the figures as follows:
LE MAT / VII right horse / XIII / XV the 3 figures there / XVIII the left dog / XXI the bull.

-Must be a reason.If not tell me why the lion at XI card has a blue one ?

-I ever thought that after one did his posts and close his computer,one is again alone with his ideas wrong or right,so why and surely you will be agree,one must take the things of others too "heavy" ?
I always welcome all the others members arguments here and there,don t mind if I am agree or not.
Of course I will replay with my ideas but ver on a kindly way.

Till the next and I enjoy your presence...

eugim

I see everything got resolved (beautifully!) in my absence! Hats off to both of you.

If it had not, I would not have "fired" anyone. We would have just gone toe-to-toe! The Ban Hammer is for cowards, in these cases.

You are correct, Miguel, in your approach to things. Without looking at facts, we'd still be dealing with things like polio because there would be no science, either. EE's approach is not so linear, but he is basically telling people to think for themselves, rather than look around for someone to tell them what to think. If these people look at the cards and see a kangaroo in a Frank Sinatra hat, then so be it. At least they are not being led by the nose. Is that why the threads are being allowed to sink into oblivion over there, I wonder?

If anyone is just a little less vulnerable to the Jonestown Kool Aid mentality, that's a good thing.

My account at ATF has been disabled as well. I'm not worried about it.

There was no explanation. I alluded to "stickying the links at my place" but did not name Riverside on-list. It was fine for a couple of days and then my account was disabled. No warning, no communication.

I suppose we fomented a small revolution over there. It's all good. I am pleased.

Hello Stella...
First I m glad that you returned to this your friendly place of meeting.
I want to be clear on some points once for all,and then return to work as you surely want to also since your absence.

1-I never had any problem with Chanah.
Contrary I enjoy too much her very deep and interesting posts.
She is a very intelligent person to change thoughts even if are or not agree.
At the end that doesn t matter to me if I found another point of view so different to mine.
Is nice and useful to hear a polyphony of ideas...
On the other side one can find at the web blogs where all is flat without deepen thoughts.
Nobody do a single contribution and the threads are a caravan of many ego exposed...
That s bored and tiring to death !
* For example: At tarothistory.com I had change "many box gloves" with Michael Hurst but I think on a respected level at least form my side.
Both know that we will never be agree on the meaning side of the cards,but I am a fan of his site from the first hour and learned a "LOT" and will learn from him on an historical side.
But I don t like his harsh and unkindly ways and I told this him many times.
BTW I was not the only who had problem with him with regard to this point ...
-Different and at the opposite isde is a gentleman as Ross Caldwell or Huck.
Or the awesome site of Andy Pollett more friendly and not ego exposed.
One can not be agree sometimes but both ever answer a post no matter if one was to "simple mind" for them.
2-As I said before we only have the cards.
We have not a single historical book from Noblet to Conver which explain to us the meaning of the cards.
So cards speaks for themselves I think and one only (and not less ) have to try to read the intention of the author.
Otherwise we know the distortion did of the iconography from De Gebelin through Levi,Papus,Waite till now.
I will not deny theirs value but I think they must done another deck different form TdM,and leave TdM rest in peace please...
I m agree that E. E. helps to try people think by themselves and he did and do a great contribution.
I am not on the poetic side but on the historical iconographic one.
For example: May be I am the closest to Robert Mealing at this point and I respect and love him but very fewest times we were agree on the meaning side.
I m more close to JMD and closest to Psykees or Kircher Tree
3-I also Stella try to encourage people to just deeply "WATCH" the cards.
On my threads here you can see that I never began a post saying "that card mean that or this".
I always first begin with a vision of the place of that card at the sequence,then describe it as it show at my eyes and only at the end I explain my ideas of it.
-How many web sites you know that an " Ascended Master" say to you that that card mean this or that ?
Many too many ?
-I think there are thousands.So too much that they looks as ONE ever...
One of the more enlightened thought I read is from a paragraph of the Novel of Sherlock Holmes "Scandal in Bohemia" wrote by Arthur Conan Doyle.
There Watson ask to Sherlock what he think about a case...

-Watson:"This is indeed a mystery," I remarked. "What do you imagine that it means?"

-Sherlock Holmes: "I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.

* Well that is one of my best approach to TdM and of course to life.
Otherwise if one want to believe in violet elephants,surely one will "SEE" it as this no doubt and I m not talking on a poetic sense.
I am saying this seriously convinced that imagination is very powerful and creative and only and not less simply replay to us desire on a true material and real sense.
-One want conscious or not to feel as a victim well the reality send to us fast a "collection" of people to harm us.
Enough to us be busy for years if don t wake up until or best before the "break"
So ours creations are very true on a real material sense thanks to ours imagination.
-We all are powerful "Magnets" and each minute life replay to us with ours prior desires.
4-With regard to ATFired forum I follow Chanah advice an entered there this past weekend,and believe both all became too very plain and without any deep contribution at TdM gallery.
Nobody went far from which they want that "others hear what I am saying".
TdM new point of view ? / Another contribution there ?
Nothing my friend ...
Only ego exposed !

-So be very glad to created this wonderful place and forget as Chanah did the harsh ways.
After all ...
Who lost ? / Who lost deeper seekers of the true clues of the meaning of TdM ?
Who lost people that really search for a responsible post replay instead of say "See me all ? / I am here ! / Well I think that the VIII card is a depiction of my mother in law in my life... )
-Of course that could be a reading on a personal level that I do not avoid or deny.
But if you are at a TdM gallery please at least explain to me how you arrived to this conclusion...
We all are trying to decode the images done as earlier than 1650 (Noblet)
-Don t one must think that even if Noblet had a mother in law,his personal iconography was less personal and more universal so more "wide angle " viewed ?
People as those never go far form themselves and use TdM as an endless mirror ...
They can not and will never try to see or best watch the cards for themselves.
They all are self-referenced till death ...
All is related to them.If is the sun shine it is for them and so on...
They really "knock me out" Stella ...
-Please my friend,check if someone will log in here with a mirror and tell me...

-I love to you all !
-I return to work and long life to E. E. also ...y(The result of Mars on zero degree of Cancer closest to my ascendant at 26.52 degrees of Gemini /Aquarius born )
All is red as my hair.

eugim

eugim wrote:

1-I never had any problem with Chanah.
Contrary I enjoy too much her very deep and interesting posts.
She is a very intelligent person to change thoughts even if are or not agree.
At the end that doesn t matter to me if I found another point of view so different to mine.
Is nice and useful to hear a polyphony of ideas...

YES! That's the whole point.
When everyone is always thinking the same way, it's boring. Might as well talk to ourselves!

I could see the posts over the weekend because my kid's cell phones have internet browsers, but I couldn't post.
They crash if I try to post. And I liked the way things happened here.

Quote :

On the other side one can find at the web blogs where all is flat without deepen thoughts.
Nobody do a single contribution and the threads are a caravan of many ego exposed...
That s bored and tiring to death !

A lot of those people set themselves up as experts.
The trouble is, they usually don't know much.

Quote :

* For example: At tarothistory.com I had change "many box gloves" with Michael Hurst but I think on a respected level at least form my side.
Both know that we will never be agree on the meaning side of the cards,but I am a fan of his site from the first hour and learned a "LOT" and will learn from him on an historical side.
But I don t like his harsh and unkindly ways and I told this him many times.
BTW I was not the only who had problem with him with regard to this point ...

If he's any good, I guess he's earned the right to a little arrogance.

Quote :

On my threads here you can see that I never began a post saying "that card mean that or this".
I always first begin with a vision of the place of that card at the sequence,then describe it as it show at my eyes and only at the end I explain my ideas of it.
-How many web sites you know that an " Ascended Master" say to you that that card mean this or that ?
Many too many ?

ROFLMFAO!!

"Ascended Master"...

Quote :

-I think there are thousands.So too much that they looks as ONE ever...
One of the more enlightened thought I read is from a paragraph of the Novel of Sherlock Holmes "Scandal in Bohemia" wrote by Arthur Conan Doyle.
There Watson ask to Sherlock what he think about a case...

-Watson:"This is indeed a mystery," I remarked. "What do you imagine that it means?"

-Sherlock Holmes: "I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.

* Well that is one of my best approach to TdM and of course to life.
Otherwise if one want to believe in violet elephants,surely one will "SEE" it as this no doubt and I m not talking on a poetic sense.
I am saying this seriously convinced that imagination is very powerful and creative and only and not less simply replay to us desire on a true material and real sense.
-One want conscious or not to feel as a victim well the reality send to us fast a "collection" of people to harm us.
Enough to us be busy for years if don t wake up until or best before the "break"
So ours creations are very true on a real material sense thanks to ours imagination.
-We all are powerful "Magnets" and each minute life replay to us with ours prior desires.

I see what you're saying.
I like a little Zen with my arty stuff, too.
It keeps things real.

Quote :

-So be very glad to created this wonderful place and forget as Chanah did the harsh ways.
After all ...
Who lost ? / Who lost deeper seekers of the true clues of the meaning of TdM ?

Thanks for that.

Quote :

People as those never go far form themselves and use TdM as an endless mirror ...
They can not and will never try to see or best watch the cards for themselves.
They all are self-referenced till death ...
All is related to them.If is the sun shine it is for them and so on...
They really "knock me out" Stella ...

Quote :

-I love to you all !
-I return to work and long life to E. E. also ...y(The result of Mars on zero degree of Cancer closest to my ascendant at 26.52 degrees of Gemini /Aquarius born )
All is red as my hair.

Long life to every last one of us.

Cheers!

1-Well okay things were said so I will return to work because that is why I am here.
All the position of others no-members outside here I expect will not waist my time no more...
2-For the last time I remark here that joined your site to work,so not for waist time with absent no-members.
3-I will finish my trip along the 22 cards as I promised before once for all.
I will ahead do no post about others topics aside this.
After all we all are here at TdM gallery or not ?
-So I will not talking ahead about what I think related to others no members here.
If a member here want to cross ideas,I will be there ever...

* My best as ever !

eugim

This is the Hurst guy you were talking about?
http://www.geocities.com/cartedatrionfi/

Hurst wrote:

Department of Redundancy Department

-Yes,he is.

eugim

-With regard to my topic about the skin-earth colour present on some cards,I forgot mentioned the angel (Cupid) at VI card.
Virtually all his body is of that colour except his face and right hand.

1-Is not him a celestial messenger ?
So why is he incarnated ?
-Is because his arrow is pointing to the carnal side of the boy at the middle ?
Is it a sex arrow ?
-Is why the figure at the left of the card (for me a man) seems to warning him for that ?
2-See the boy left hand pointing the "sex zone" of the right woman of the card...
Skin colour:
a- See his legs.
b-See his right (male side) arm.
c-See the left (female side) arm of the women
3-So for me is card clearly of a sexy election or not.
On one depend.
4-That does not suppose any bad.Contrary means and simply an election.
Is a temptation between the purest love of God not incarnated and the carnal love through we live (God incarnated)
Is the meeting between both different but closest situations as we see at ours ordinary life... (many times)
-Nothing evil here I repeat.
Is just that the boy is on a trip so he must choose to still here with all of us or climb up at LE CHARIOT and begin his trip until arrive at XII card-stage (a crucial one )

-I will copy all this to the VI card thread.

eugim wrote:

3-So for me is card clearly of a sexy election or not.
On one depend.
4-That does not suppose any bad.Contrary means and simply an election.

Yes, it seems neutral all by itself. Neither "moral" nor "immoral."
In a reading, I would look at the neighboring cards to get a sense of what's going on.
Historically, though, it's up for grabs, IMHO.

Quote :

-I will copy all this to the VI card thread.

Thanks!

Stella:
You mentioned a very true approach to the cards:

"In a reading, I would look at the neighbouring cards to get a sense of what's going on."

1-I also suppose you mean that also you have in mind that each card of your reading has a context in the sequence.
For example if the cards of your reading are: XII - XV - VII
I think you pay attention at least to the prior cards of each one : XI - XIIII - VI to have an overall view.
2-Because I think that each card is a consequence at least of it s prior card.
XII card mus not exists if XI is not before there.
Tarot is compounded by a number sequence.
3-I want to go far and will develop this more on the "structure" thread then...

a-Tarot card sequence is numbered by an additive way so not by a subtraction way.
So we have IIII not IV // VIIII not IX // XIIII not XIV // XVIIII not XIX
* That show or suggest I best think a "break" not a continuity.
So for example IIII is not minus V. / Is not a suggestion of continuity related to the V card.
As a result these cards work as breaks for the prior 4 cards and bridges for the next rows: V / X /XV / XX

-As follows:

a- I- II- III- IIII / V : Bridge to the next row
b-VI - VII - VIII - VIIII / X : Bridge to the next row
c- XI - XII - XIII - XIIII - / XV: Bridge to the next row
d- XVI - XVII - XVIII - XVIIII / XX-Bridge to the end of the trip-sequence = XXI

4- Is very interesting to see the X pattern of the bridge rows.
It begin with a V then comes X : An addition of another V but inverted or reversed.
So the X pattern suggest a funnel where each angle point touch the other so connecting both,to swap "things".
If I fill the first V with water or wine if you want,it then will fill the below V reversed.(Here I see the concept of continuity,on the breaks not on the rows)
*I see the first V filling the V reversed of the X as the support of my "bridge" thesis of the structure pattern.
So V fills X / X fills XV and XV fills XX
a-X : V + V reversed
b-XV: X + V = As a somewhat musical octave of the first V
c-XX : XV + V = As a somewhat musical octave of the V of the X card reversed.
d-As a result: V + ^ = X // XV = X + V // XX = XV + ^

-My english is the worst here so I expect you be friendly with me please !

5-So on a reading context given I think one must have in mind which place has each card in each row or if a card there is a bridge to another row.
Each row is a "block" linked to another with a bridge ( V - X - XV - XX )
-Each row (four) has an own conceptual meaning. /Each bridge (four) has it s own.
-At the reading example I gave before ( XII - XV - VII ) we have that the first one belong to the third row,the second is a third bridge and the last card is from the second row.
6-So as a result I think one must first "catch" the conceptual row of the given card where it is placed and then see the connection with the others two cards of the reading example given.
7-Finally Tarot de Marseille has an structure given by it s own.
This structure helps us to learn and develop ours intuitions.
One must only study and follow it.
As Tchalai Unger said "Tarot is in the Tarot"