Tarot de Marseille structure

-First of all Stella,many thanks to invite me to your forum,so to your innermost home.
I found here many good friends of mine as you.Warm people.
-As you know me I m fond with Tarot de Marseille as you,in my case exclusively.
-I will try here to leave aside meanings and strictly attempt to drive attention to the iconography of the picture of the cards.
After all,they have within the meaning through an iconographic way I think.
I come from a different language (Spanish) so many times is too hard to express ideas because one is trying to translate concept,not only words.
So,excuse all the members my lack of words...
-Well,said that,I am going to work HARD here my pimienta de cayena friend !

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1-A deck of 78 cards consisted of 2 groups.
One group of 22,the other of 56
2-22: One card unnumbered (LE MAT) other unnamed (XIII) (Except J. Noblet-1650)
The rest named and numbered.
So in terms of sequence we have LE MAT and the others 21.
a-Numbered:One number something or someone related to other,is to assign a place a physical place related to others.
Numbers by definition suppose a range and the order of a sequence.
Named:Something or someone that exists but not necessarily on a physical sense.
Haven t a physical place on the cards sequence but he is "overall" " "everywhere".
So here we have the example of XIII: Death (except Noblet) is unnamed but numbered.
Unnamed: Death really doesn t exists in the realm of the Soul.Death can t kill the Soul.
Numbered: A physical place related to the other cards.
Death really exists on a physical sense death kill the Matter of ours bodies and kill the Matter of the Nature on cycles.
But even If don t want to go farther here,jus to say that death only kill ours sick matter.Just those "zones" of us that got ill.
Matter: On a physical,emotional and mental sense.
Death is a miracle renewing tireless ours sicks "zones".
b-We have the 21 cards numbered on a clear sequence of 4.
It s additive not by subtraction. ( 4 isn t the roman IV )
Each 5 and by extension 10 makes a new group of 4: V - X - XV
With regards of course to XX card I will go further aheadbut for now XX and XXI are the crucial conclusion of the trip.
3-56:Four Suits.Compounded of two groups / 14 Honours named but unnumbered,and 40 numerals numbered but unnamed.
I could add that on Jean Dodal deck as also on Nicolas Conver DENIERS are unnamed and unnumbered.
a-Here is a point of too much discussion on the Web...
Which is the sequence of the Suits ???
I think numerals have the answer.
-I think that the cards must read from left to right.Just because Tarot de Marseille is a western world invention and we read from left to right.
-Aces have the answer: EPEE hand comes from left to right and BATON comes from right to left.
Both are active,masculine.Beginning an action.
-Both DENIERS (the only in plural btw) and COUPEE are static,receptive,feminine.
-But as I said before a card unnumbered has not a physical place related to others so it isn t "here".
(A coincidence: LE MAT and Honours with regard to the unnumbered topic)
(DENIERS are very curious.../ They are unnumbered and unnamed) (Ok except the very first deck the one of J. Noblet )
-Well...
For me the sequence is as follows :
DENIERS / EPEE / BATON / COUPEE
-Again we have here the pattern of 4 : Four Honours
Honours are named but unnumbered they are archetypical figures as LE MAT /They are not here on physical sense.
-With regard to numerals really we have again Ace + 9 cards numbered ( somewhat as LE MAT and the others 21 )
4-This was a first attempt for me to show the crossed relations between the 22 and the 56.

This is actually pretty deep. I like it!

I'm printing it out so I can think about it more. I'll be back!

eugim wrote:

-First of all Stella,many thanks to invite me to your forum,so to your innermost home.
I found here many good friends of mine as you.Warm people.

Mi casa es su casa!

Quote :

I come from a different language (Spanish) so many times is too hard to express ideas because one is trying to translate concept,not only words.
So,excuse all the members my lack of words...
-Well,said that,I am going to work HARD here my pimienta de cayena friend !

You are thinking in Spanish.
Sometimes a concept comes through BETTER in languages other than English.
English reminds me of a stiff work boot.
But the little Spanish I know is like a soft, flexible slipper.

So do work hard! Thank you! We will figure it out!

Quote :

a-Numbered:One number something or someone related to other,is to assign a place a physical place related to others.
Numbers by definition suppose a range and the order of a sequence.
Named:Something or someone that exists but not necessarily on a physical sense.
Haven t a physical place on the cards sequence but he is "overall" " "everywhere".
So here we have the example of XIII: Death (except Noblet) is unnamed but numbered.
Unnamed: Death really doesn t exists in the realm of the Soul.Death can t kill the Soul.
Numbered: A physical place related to the other cards.
Death really exists on a physical sense death kill the Matter of ours bodies and kill the Matter of the Nature on cycles.
But even If don t want to go farther here,jus to say that death only kill ours sick matter.Just those "zones" of us that got ill.
Matter: On a physical,emotional and mental sense.
Death is a miracle renewing tireless ours sicks "zones".

Or:
Death is like Le Mat. On the Conver, He could be Le Mat's skeleton. He wanders...
Conver seems to have linked the two cards. Noblet leaves them more unrelated.
He is also the flip side of L'Imperatrice. III, XIII, profound transformation...
It is interesting that on the Noblet he faces opposite. Maybe he is going to cut Le Pendu's rope.

Quote :

b-We have the 21 cards numbered on a clear sequence of 4.
It s additive not by subtraction. ( 4 isn t the roman IV )

IIII

Quote :

Each 5 and by extension 10 makes a new group of 4: V - X - XV
With regards of course to XX card I will go further aheadbut for now XX and XXI are the crucial conclusion of the trip.
3-56:Four Suits.Compounded of two groups / 14 Honours named but unnumbered,and 40 numerals numbered but unnamed.
I could add that on Jean Dodal deck as also on Nicolas Conver DENIERS are unnamed and unnumbered.
a-Here is a point of too much discussion on the Web...
Which is the sequence of the Suits ???
I think numerals have the answer.
-I think that the cards must read from left to right.Just because Tarot de Marseille is a western world invention and we read from left to right.
-Aces have the answer: EPEE hand comes from left to right and BATON comes from right to left.
Both are active,masculine.Beginning an action.
-Both DENIERS (the only in plural btw) and COUPEE are static,receptive,feminine.
-But as I said before a card unnumbered has not a physical place related to others so it isn t "here".
(A coincidence: LE MAT and Honours with regard to the unnumbered topic)
(DENIERS are very curious.../ They are unnumbered and unnamed) (Ok except the very first deck the one of J. Noblet )
-Well...
For me the sequence is as follows :
DENIERS / EPEE / BATON / COUPEE

Interesting!
I use the creatures on LeMonde. I circle counter-clockwise: Epee, Coupe, Deniers, Batons.
One way, but certainly not the only way. You've just shown me another. Thanks!

-Yes Stella ...
For me LE MAT and XIII have many common points.

1-LE MAT / A walking stick- A sort of a pagan crosier blessing ours real internal world.
2-XIII / A schythe - Death as a blessing cutting ours "death" zones so to ensure that a new spring grow on ours life.
Just as a gardener do.
3-Usually as on Conver deck LE MAT and XIII goes to the right and to the same side,but on Noblet XIII death goes contrary to the left so the past.
Even though she has "victims" behind and forward ( a point that I will work on XIII card soon ),she work toward the past clearly.
4-Why ?
-Well here I first talk about the topic that is how to read the cards.
a-TdM is a western world invention. / We read form left to right. = So cards must be read on that way // Left = Past * Right = Present to Future.
b-The name of a card is prior to it s number // LE MAT shown it : Name = Existence. (Without number he is not here physically understand )
c-The number of a card comes then // XIII : Number = Position related to others cards on a sequence.Death is "here" on a very physically sense but not exists really for the Soul.She only could kill the Matter.
5-So cards must be read just for me from below (name) to above (number ) and from left ( past) to right ( present becoming future "NOW" ).

eugim

1-An element very interesting I think is the point that in some cards is between words or numbers.
As I always say if it is there ,must has a purpose,if not how understand when it is not there ?
Because an absence has also a meaning as a silence in a music score. (Many times sound it more loud ! )
Here is the sketch with ( * ) as a point :

II : LA * PAPESSE

V : LE * PAPE

VI : * LAMOVREVX *

X: LAROVE * DEEORTVNE

XI : X * I

XII : LE * PENDV * // X * II

XIII : * X * III

XIIII : * LEMPERANCE * // * X * IIII

XV : X * V

XVI : LA * MAISON * DIEV

XX : X * X

XXI : X * X * I

2-So I ve been thinking if one compare same patterns could find link so meaning,because we only have the cards so any book to help us.
A reason must be if not please call me...
Surely in that case I will begin to study "El juego de la Oca " ( A very interesting iconography btw ... )

-Have in mind that I am talking about the restoration version of Noblet deck did by Jean Claude Flornoy.

1-I ve been watching closely the original Jean Noblet cards XVI and XVIII and for me Flornoy don t follow the same pattern about the point ( * ) between or beside numbers,with all the respect I have for him.
Just as a I see it ...

a: XVI / LA MAISON DIEV
Original Jean Noblet * X * VI (point X point VI )



Jean Claude Flornoy XVI (So any point )



b: XVIII / LA LVNE
Original Jean Noblet X * VIII ( or * X * VIII ) I can not distinguish here well the difference between both.



Jean Claude Flornoy XVIII (So any point )



2-This is not a little difference for me because as I sustained every time that each little detail on a card must has a PURPOSE.
If not: Which purpose has it s absence ?
Understanding purpose as meaning.
If not: Noblet did not give much care,don t mind all this differences.
But again why one can see "crossed " linked patterns ?

3-So having this in mind one have to compare crossing similar patterns and differences to look for a possible purpose as a meaning of it I think.
For example regarding to the name of the cards I see this similar pattern in this cards:

a - II / V / X

b - VI / XIIII

c- Similar pattern by the absence of a point on the name: I /III / IIII / VII / VIII / VIIII / XVII / XVIIII / LE FOV

d- Without any coincidence with another card and between them : XII and X

-Regarding to the number of the cards:

a- XI / XII / XV / XX / ¿ XVIII ?

b- XIII / XIIII / XVI / ¿ XVIII ?

c- Similar pattern by the absence of a point on the number: I /III / IIII / VII / VIII / VIIII / XVII / XVIIII

d- Without any coincidence with another card: XXI

- The rest analysis of the meaning of all this is a personal point of view of course.

Till the next ...

Hmmm, I wonder why Flornoy left it off? He was so careful, otherwise.

I don't know if it means anything or not. But it might, he should have left it there.

More to ponder. Thanks!

-Hello Stella and nice too see you again !

1-Again you can see the " Old and good exercise " of just WATCH the cards.
I could be wrong or not,but the point is the attitude,the point of view (precisely...)
Cards have all the visual information we need if we SEE them.
Simple as this my friend.

2-Did you see that very little is said about structure of a deck on the web ?
That too much was said about a particular card ?

* Have in mind this : V - X - XV XX ( Clockwise )

Till the next.

eugim wrote:

-Hello Stella and nice too see you again !

Nice to be back.

Quote :

1-Again you can see the " Old and good exercise " of just WATCH the cards.
I could be wrong or not,but the point is the attitude,the point of view (precisely...)
Cards have all the visual information we need if we SEE them.
Simple as this my friend.

I think it was Oscar Wilde who said that if asked whether they would rather go to heaven, or attend a lecture about heaven, Americans would opt for the lecture.

Not always easy to get people to experience things directly.

Quote :

2-Did you see that very little is said about structure of a deck on the web ?
That too much was said about a particular card ?

* Have in mind this : V - X - XV XX ( Clockwise )

Like this?

I thought it in terms of numbers.

V

X = V + ^

XV = V + ^ + V

XX = V + ^ + V + ^

* This last ^ (V reversed ) of the XX card is the key for me of the ascending meaning of the card.
So V LE PAPE is the Spirit falling in the matter
X is the work we are doing to return to the Spirit/Sun /God
XV is the amount of matter we have accumulated
XX is the right to return ( The last ^ of the XX= X + V + ^)

* Is the Mason depiction but reversed:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Square_compasses.svg

Because here the compass is a depiction of God energy and the square as the Universe or matter.

BTW : Tell me why my Estelita the first Christian ideogram after the two fishes (the Ichthys=Pisces astrological sign as you surely know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross ),the Chrismon has this X pattern...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrismon

-So is not a vertical cross as we know it,is an X a Solar/Divine so God depiction)

-So closer to this :

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Ankh.png

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Star_of_David.svg

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